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Imperator_Josephus
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PostSubject: We need to "research"   Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:03 am

The results of the match this weekend was disappointing to me. I think the underlying reason for the losses was the fact we really didn't test the armies we used, except for playing noobs in the lobby. My proposal is this:

1. We test unit vs unit on the first map, which is a snow map. We see which archers work best, which cav and inf works best, and how effective chariots are in the snow. After we finish the snow map, we can test the same units on grassy.

2. We plan what factions work better together. In other words, which factions strengths combine to cover the weaknesses of thier allies.

3. We need to watch the results and see what factions Invictus used so we can eliminate what they can use against us. No sense spending time reseach defenses against chariots when they used up those factions in the first round.

4. Once we develope these armies, then we can test them in the lobby. Hopefully, this will not occur against noobs. If these armies hold against good competition, then we are good to go.

5. We will post the results of our tests so everyone in the clan can share them.

I will be on every night this week after 10 pm eastern at the latest. Please help me with this task. Our honor as quality players is at stake. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:32 pm

I've been discussing our situation with my friend Railen. He thinks we should use Germany, combined with either Macedonia or Carthage, on the next winter map. Germany would provide the offensive inf we need and Carthage or Macedonia the defensive. This is his view of how to use Germany:

"The key to germany is you can go with 2 tactics
Daniel M. says:
You can either try and win with combat prowess
Daniel M. says:
or beat there morale
Daniel M. says:
they have more units then the brits that hurt morale
Daniel M. says:
night raiders
Daniel M. says:
screeching women
Daniel M. says:
Berzerkers
Daniel M. says:
dogs
Daniel M. says:
You get some Night Raiders that warcry +dogs+flaming arrows+ berserkers+women+ flank them = route"

The question is, who has enough experience with the Germans to accomplish this? I don't think i ever used the germans.... I'll bet I can catch on quick though... Cool

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:50 pm

celtic has the experiance for Germans, i am really sorry i missed the first game. I havn't seen a post on it but what was the result?

also, i have a bed time now (I know lol! ) at 10:00

and if Celtic cant do it i suppose i can if the times reasonable, i am open this weekend. but I feel the best way for us to practice is against ourselves in 2v2
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Total War rebels -2 wins
Imperators -0 wins

Celtic & Josephus 1st match

Josephus & Boru 2nd match

I dont think we played horrible, they just played a little better and had better builds than we did. Im not ashamed at all by the defeat but a win would have been nice. I agree that we should master every unit in every terrain and know exactly who will win the exchange.

For me my greatest weakness is Im a medieval player and try many known med tactics in rome which dont quite work the same, for example hit and run tactics are not as effective in rome as I find my units routeing as soon as I try to get them to withdraw for a second charge, not always but often enough. I also find myself trying to hit them and run through the otherside, which for some reason my horse's dont all get through with out massive casaulties.

Theres nothing there that cant be fixed with more practice vs high caliber players.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:19 pm

Running through in RTW doesn't work because its not bugged like MTW2. Hit and run tactics do work but it is a little different than MTW2. If you hit a superior force and try to run, you wind up routing. Hit and run does work if you have inf vs inf and then hit, withdraw, and hit again with your cavalry. I think its realistic really. Imagine you are fighting on horseback against enemy cavalry and you decide to turn and run. What happens? Most likely a sword in the back. What happens with morale? Well, I could imagine a sword in my back until I rode far enough to feel safe. Now if you are running away from some who is occupied with something else, that another story.

As far as playing well, I don't think we were terrible, but we did have an advantage in faction to faction matchups. Brits in snow and Egypt in desert should have tipped the scales in our favor. Rome is probably the strongest faction and sels are arguably in the top 2 or 3. We have used the top factions and came up with no wins... Anyway, we have to work this out. In the words of Gen. George Patton, "America loves a winner and will not toerate a loser". I hate hating myself.... affraid

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:33 am

Celtic and I played a couple games last night. We were very effective using Germany and Carthage/Macedonia. I especially liked Germany/Carthage. We won a game against HELL Willon and an apoc member. Willon complained, justifiably so, that he didnt know it was a winter map. I do not think it mattered much, though. Catas have a hard time beating Sacred Band Infantry that is upgraded gold/gold.

Celtic thinks, and I agree, that with the small amount of cav that is allowed, archers become critical. We also found that his german archers worked best when deployed in the midst of the Sacred Band Inf. This infantry, when fully upgraded, suffers few casualties from most archers because of its high defense.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:13 pm

i could see how that would work, im not a big fan of putting archers into other units, misfires and whatnot. also, i have a quote from Patton to, i think it will apply.

"We have the finest food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity those poor sons-of-bitches we're going up against. By God, I do."

George S. Patton, Jr.
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:18 pm

You ever read Patton's book "War as I know it"?



Last edited by Imperator_Josephus on Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:33 pm

no, but im doing a thing for my previous world history 2 teacher with a qoute of the day, and i remembered seeing it.

now, if you happened to read the Book of Five Rings by Miyomoto Musashi or Art of War by Machievelli, then we can go on all day about that.

anyway, back on topic
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:55 pm

Worthy books to read, but I think the most practical book on military theory is Liddell Hart's "The Indirect Approach". Liddell Hart is the military theorist whose writtings inspired Guderian, the father of Blitzkrieg. The theories of this book are applicable not only to military strategy but to different aspects of ordinary life. Its a great book.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:04 pm

The Prince is a worthy contestant for that. complete outline to how campaigns should be run and how to keep people from going on military rampages by making them not want be pursue a career in the military, just achieve glory from it

Not to mention the number of brilliant strategists who studied this.

another one is Sun Tzu's Art of War, but i can only go from general knowlegde, rather than what i have read from it
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:27 pm

Personally, I dislike Sun Tzu. He's kind of esoteric. "If your enemy is near, make him think you are far. If your enemy is far, make him think you are near." Suspect I like Liddel Hart because he is practical.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:11 pm

I would still like to do some unit tests. Anyone available?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:16 pm

I go to the gym @ 6:30 pm pacific time and usualy work out for about 2 hours on average, so any time before or after I can get some test in.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:48 pm

Cool. How would tomorrow night work for you? I am usually on about 10 eastern. Is that 6 or 7 pm your time? When do you get home?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:36 pm

Since we are entering another tourney, I think we need to resurrect this topic. We desperately need to test some units and tactics. The last serious testing I have done with RTW was 3 years ago. Tactics have progressed past the discoveries made at that time. I think we need to test:

1) Gold weapons/gold shield cataphracts with stripes of experience. We (me and Railen) discounted these units because of their great expense. These units have lately come into popularity and have been used with great effect (painfully in some cases). We need to know how effective they really are and what cost effective means can be used to counter them.

2) Army combinations. We need to play several 3v3 games against good, or at least competent, players. We will have to challenge some clans. We can then test our army choices and how effective they are used by us.

Can anyone else think of things that need to be tested?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:28 pm

If you are a little bit more descriptive on what needs to be tested I can almost guarantee I have tested it with Zeke as we have made some startling discoveries prior to my departure from AoE. (For instance I have discovered a way to have Phalanx Pikemen from Pontus (Second rank pikes) beat Seleucid Pikemen (1st Rank) or at least hold them competently enough for Pontus cavalry to destroy the enemy cavalry.

I also many many armies should you want them for factions vs different factions. I can also send you a replay of an impressive 3v3 I had with AoE where I was with Paullus and Aurel (We had Germany, Thrace, and Germany) vs 3 of our recruits who had Dacia, Macedon, and Greece (they should have destroyed us) but if came out as a clear victory for us I believe if you want to see the tactics that AoE uses to beat the "best" players from the other clans.

Let me know if you want to see them and I will give them to you. Also add my new x-fire: megasalexadros1 (This is the one I have been using)
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:02 pm

Sounds great wolf. You can send all the info you'd like to me. email would be fine. joevelie@hotmail.com


Update: Just tried your xfire id and it doesn't work. Did you make a typo?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:18 pm

hmm, I guess I did. megasalexandros1

forgot the "n" Razz
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:59 am

to help with the cata problem, ambushes work best aside from chariots, if i get the oppurtunity ill be egypt or britain anyway, so we might not have to worry. another was to beat them is just ignore the other guys archers, and fire into his cataphracts, but that only works if your sure you can win without your own archers. however, you do get the grace that every cataphract faction has poor archers, so the risk might be worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:45 am

Yes, chariots eat the catas. The gold/gold catas are uneffected casualty wise by archers. They will have a morale effect if hitting the catas with fire arrows.

I think that would be a great idea, have one faction either Egypt or Briton. I would think that Egypt would be the stronger of the two in most situations.

I should have been more specific about the unit tests. A Roman defense for catas would be no. 1 on my list. I have experimented with unupgraded urbs, triarii with gold weapon, maxed preat cav (gold/gold upgrades), and maxed aux archers, in a 1v1. Winning the archer fight was first step. Then the mix of inf and cav made the difference. I do know that Sacred Band Inf maxed whips the upgraded catas.

In any case... a Egypt/Brit, Roman, and Sels would probably be the best combo. 2nd game, maybe Macedonia, Armenia, and Egypt or Brit (whichever wasn't used in the first game). i like Scythia, Germania, and Pontus as well. What do you guys think?

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:27 pm

Egypt will be used first game, for sure. if Egypts used, Britain will be used to counter most likely. so i would probably have to be armenia, not that thats an issue. Ill let Celtic get the germans.
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:33 pm

ok. That leaves us with another thing to work out, who plays when.

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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:15 pm

i can get on at around 7-10 to practice if you want. at 10 i need to stop and go to bed though.

This is for practice purposes

Could someone post the official rules, ive registered on their site but it won't let me search the forums. real annoying. Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: We need to "research"   Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:29 pm

Well, a couple of things, when using chariots dont give them defense upgrades, its a waste of cash and doesnt add much by way of giving them super advantages. As for the first matchup, dont use both Egypt and Seles in the first round as those are two power players and Britain will not be used to counter any of them.

They way to beat the Brits is with Egypt/Seles not the other way around. As for beating Egypt the best way is to use Carthage or Greece I have experimented many times in this with Zeke and there is no alternative. The archer battle may not be ignored as that will beat both Cavalry and Infantry at the end of the battle. (Cretans eat cavalry for breakfast)

Also, when using Rome, you dont need to give your infantry g/g upgrades, I found that s/b upgrades are enough to beat all but Carthaginian Sacred Band infantry when you use all your pilla. That gives you more money to save for use on your cavalry. My typical Roman army is something like this:

5 Urbs s/s or s/b (depending on how lazy I am feeling with using inf)
4-5 Praet Cav g/g (never anything less)
6 Roman Archer g/g
2 Archer Auxillia g/-

Then make sure for the archer battle you have your Urban Cohorts lined up in lose formation in front of your archers as they will block arrows with their large shields better then anyone else (yes it is true, it also has been tested) Then for your cavalry make sure you use Alt-Attack so your praetorian cavalry will pull their swords as soon as melee begins. (Even when telling your unit to attack, press alt as they will charge with their spears and instantly pull their swords when melee begins)

As for beating Parthia, use Scythia and bring Head Hunting Maidens, they are cheap, and are Armour Piercing which destroys the Cataphracts including the Camels. You also will not have to worry about the archer battle to much as Scythia vs Parthia as Scythia has regular archer and long range archers, but Parthia has Slingers and arcehrs and as everyone knows (or should know) is that slingers can and often do beat regular archers.

As for Sacred Band Infantry maxed out beating cataphracts, thats new I have never seen it to be completely honest. Armenia under control of a decent-good player should destroy Carthage without a sweat.

I dont want to sound cocky or arrogant or anything of the sort, just putting all the info that I have gathered over the past few months out there for you to see.
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